I recently had a discussion come up over the following video.  The individual made the argument that since private sales of firearms do not requiring a background check, private sales are a loophole.  I explain why that just isn’t the case.  What follows is the video and our exchange.

PGFL1988:

Quick google search gave me this:

‘Under federal law, private-party sellers are not required to perform background checks on buyers, record the sale, or ask for identification. This requirement is in contrast to sales by gun stores and other Federal Firearms License (FFL) holders who are required to record all sales and perform background checks on almost all buyers, regardless of whether the venue is their business location or a gun show.’

So Fullauto can sell me a gun without performing a background check, recording the sale or even asking me for identification. Now, if fullauto gets an FFL (allows you to manufacture, import and sell guns and ammo) then he will need to perform a background check on anyone he sells guns to.

So, if a gang in Chicago wants to buy guns to exploit this loophole, they get a guy in Indiana who can pass a background check to buy the guns, ‘sell’ them to the Chicago gangmembers and voila, that seller hasn’t committed any crimes despite the fact that he knowingly sold guns to people he knows wouldn’t be able to go through the legal avenues.

Please correct me if I’m wrong.

 

Here’s the deal PGFL1988.

It’s perfectly lawful to sell a firearm privately in the USA.  Now of course if you knowingly sell one to a felon then you’re committing a felony.

The gun grabbers want to criminalize private sales without government permission so they dishonestly label private sales as being a LOOPHOLE.

There is no GUN-SHOW LOOPHOLE for the simple fact that federal gun laws do not magically go away at a gun-show.  The dealers at gun shows are basically Federally Licensed Dealers who go on the road.

Now I don’t know if you’ve ever been to an American Gun Show but there’s a reason criminals do not aquire guns there.   First, THEY DO BACKGROUND CHECKS.  Second, gun shows are over priced.  You’re better off finding a good deal online.  HOLY SHIT YOU CAN GET A GUN ON THE INTERNET!?  Yes, HOWEVER the firearm MUST BE shipped to an FFL in your State.  This involves you calling the FFL first and asking if they are willing to handle the transfer and getting their license number to give to the online shop.  You then must pay for a background check and whatever fee the FFL wants to charge for handling the transfer.

The bottom line is that Obama is a fucking liar.

A quick google search?  A QUICK GOOGLE SEARCH?  Sure, if you google “gun show loophole” of course you’re going to get links to all the bullshit anti-gun sites repeating the same lie.  “I’m right because of a google search” does not a valid argument make.

 

PGFL1988:

”Under federal law, private-party sellers are not required to perform background checks on buyers, record the sale, or ask for identification. This requirement is in contrast to sales by gun stores and other Federal Firearms License (FFL) holders who are required to record all sales and perform background checks on almost all buyers, regardless of whether the venue is their business location or a gun show.”

Is this statement incorrect? Are private sellers not allowed to sell guns at a gunshow?

If yes, then there is a gunshow loophole. Just because the majority of people selling guns at gun shows are FFL holders doesn’t mean that all of them are.

This is from the CATO institute, which is clearly a right wing think tank and even they say that the gun-show loophole doesn’t exist:

 ‘Since 1938, persons selling firearms have been required to obtain a federal firearms license. If a dealer sells a gun from a storefront, from a room in his home or from a table at a gun show, the rules are exactly the same: he can get authorization from the FBI for the sale only after the FBI runs its “instant” background check (which often takes days to complete).

Conversely, people who are not engaged in the business of selling firearms, but who sell firearms from time to time (such as a man who sells a hunting rifle to his brother-in-law), are not required to obtain the federal license required of gun dealers or to call the FBI before completing the sale.

If you walk along the aisles at any gun show, you will find that the overwhelming majority of guns offered for sale are from federally licensed dealers. Guns sold by private individuals (such as gun collectors getting rid of a gun or two over the the weekend) are the distinct minority.’

http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/facts-about-gun-shows

it seems pretty clear to me that there is a loophole. Can you explain how you read this same information and come to the opposite conclusion?

If you want to say that closing the loophole will hurt individual sellers too much, or that it’s way too inconvenient then that’s a reasonable argument, but to simply say that the gun-show loophole doesn’t exist is bordering on delusional.

 

“Can you explain how you read this same information and come to the opposite conclusion?”

Yes your statement regarding current law is correct.

  • Licensed dealers who make their livelihood from selling firearms are required to perform background checks.
  • Private individuals (people NOT in the business of selling firearms) are not.  Some wanting to unload part of their private collection may engage in commerce with another private citizen.  If I wanted, I could take my rifle to a gun show and sell it to another attendee.

Now pay attention because although what I’m about to write is very simple to grasp, it non-the-less seems to fly over the heads of people like yourself who, in their lack of understanding, have swallowed the lies of the elitist gun-grabbers.

The fact that a PRIVATE INDIVIDUAL may sell their PRIVATE firearm without first obtaining government permission IS NOT, IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM, A LOOPHOLE.

A LOOPHOLE arises when ambiguity in the law is exploited to circumvent that law.

There is NO AMBIGUITY in the current federal gun law stating when background checks are and are not required.

This notion that violent felons are lining up at gun shows because it allows them to circumvent federal law is absolute bullshit.

It is ALREADY unlawful for a felon to possess a firearm.

It is ALREADY unlawful for someone to knowingly sell a firearm to a felon.

Criminalizing private sales WILL NOT stop felons from obtaining firearms.  Background checks WILL NOT stop felons from obtaining firearms.  You’re fond of Google searches, Google “straw purchase”, lying on a government form is not difficult.

If the chicken-little(s) screaming about the so-called “gun show loophole” are really concerned with gun shows, why are they pushing for a law that effects everyone?

Mind you, they don’t want to just require background checks for private sales at gun shows.  They are demanding Congress outright prohibit private sales PERIOD.

When you stop using the propaganda term “gun-show loophole” and call it by it’s actual name the fallacy reveals itself; it is the “freedom-to-engage-in-lawful-private-commerce loophole”.  Did you catch that?  They’re saying that a freedom enjoyed by law abiding people is a fucking loophole.

They don’t give a flying fuck about gun shows.  The gun show is just a boogie-man used to scare ignorant people into giving up their personal liberty.

“If you want to say that closing the loophole will hurt individual sellers too much”

^^ I’m not saying that.

“it’s way too inconvenient”

^^ I’m not saying that either.

“but to simply say that the gun show loophole doesn’t exist is bordering on delusional.”

It appears that way to you because you’ve been brainwashing into accepting a 1984-ish version of the term “loophole”.

What they ACTUALLY WANT is to criminalize people who engage in private lawful commerce absent paying fees and obtaining a one off government license for each transaction.

To what end?  We know it doesn’t stop criminals.

It’s simple, they want is to open up a backdoor to the creation of a national gun registry.

How do we know this?  Because Republicans actually submitted a background check bill in the Senate that would have opened NICS to private individuals FOR FREE.

Guess what, it was voted DOWN by Democrats who were pushing for their bill that would have forced all sales to go through a 3rd party FFL dealer.

The biggest reason why this issue is bullshit is that there is ZERO evidence that UBCs do anything to hinder the ILLEGAL trade of firearms among criminals.  And the reason is simple yet I constantly have to repeat it here, CRIMINALS BY DEFINITION DO NOT FOLLOW LAWS.

 

PGFL1988:

Can you sell guns at a gun show without doing a background check? If so, then how is that not a loophole?

 

It just keeps flying over your head doesn’t it.  I just answered you but I’ll do it again because I’m just that awesome.

If I want to sell my personal property at a gun show, there is NO LAW PROHIBITING me from doing that.

If I want to sell my personal property just outside the entrance of the gun show, there is NO LAW PROHIBITING me from doing that.

If I want to sell my personal property in the parking lot of a gun show, there is NO LAW PROHIBITING me from doing that.

If I want to sell my personal property on Thursday at 6:30pm while eating a taco, there is NO LAW PROHIBITING me from doing that.

Gun show or not, if I choose to sell my privately property to someone whom I have no reason to suspect is a prohibited person, there NO LAW PROHIBITING me from selling my personal property if I so choose.

Why is it not a loophole, because words have meaning and you are applying the term loophole to something that isn’t a fucking loophole, it’s merely something that is lawful and has always been lawful.

For example.  An FFL may not sell a handgun to someone under the age of 21.  But an 18 year old person is a legal adult and may lawfully purchase and own a firearm from a private individual.

Now by your reasoning that is a loophole.  Your reasoning is in error because you have a false definition of what constitutes a “loophole”.

Let’s pretend Congress had intended to enact Universal Background Checks when it passed the FOPA in 1986.  Furthermore, let’s pretend that somewhere in the law they fucked up the wording and by some unseen method of legal judo, under certain conditions a person could indeed technically sell their privately owned firearm without a background check.

That my friend is the definition of a loophole.

In reality Congress has NEVER INTENDED to enact Universal Background Checks.  The FOPA of 1986 unambiguously states that background checks are ONLY required when a firearm is sold by an Federal Firearms dealer.  Furthermore it unambiguously states that a Federal Firearms dealer is someone who makes their living from selling firearms.

QED: There is no loophole.  The term is being intentionally misapplied in order to suggest something semi-illegal is happening.  It’s nothing more than a dishonest buzzword used to scare people.


Here is an example of how one might misapply the term loophole as you are.

By law, an individual must have a Class A (Commercial Drivers License) in order to operate a for-hire tractor trailer on US roadways.

By law, an individual may operate a tractor trailer on US roadways WITHOUT a Class A license if they are only transporting items for themselves.

Is that a loophole?  Absolutely not.  The law is clear and unambiguous.

If certain powerful companies wanted to put a stop to farmers hauling their own goods to market, they could do what you and the gun grabbers are doing.  They could act as if it should be unlawful and assert, dishonestly, that the farmers are somehow exploiting a loophole.


Suppose I purchase three pair of high quality sun glasses at a great deal.  The law requires the business to collect sales tax on my purchase.

A few months later I turn around and sell those glasses individually for a profit.

Am I exploiting a loophole and avoiding the collection of sales tax?

According to you that could be construed as a loophole.

But the law is clear and unambiguous.  Only people in the business of selling sun glasses must collect sales tax.

Let’s take it one step further.  You manage to convince enough politicians to enact UNIVERSAL SALES TAX and everyone must collect sales tax any time they sell something they own.  Do you really expect the criminals selling knock-offs on the street to follow your new little law?

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