You are literally fucking retarded if you think mandatory gun safety courses are a bad thing. They are there to protect the gun owners and those around them, not to take away gun rights. You might as well start taking away drivers license exams, or any sort of training for dangerous equipment if you hold that attitude. Hell if someone wants to preform surgery on a member of their family, they should be able to right? Even though they don’t have the training, it’s their right to look after themselves, right? I should be able to get a construction job operating the heavy machinery, as long as I figure it out myself, right? Any time you are using dangerous tools, machinary, or doing dangerous procedures, you are required to get training in order to prevent harm to yourself and others; guns are no different.

Fuck you and your shitty toxic heartless philosophy.


 

 

Alright, I really shouldn’t but I’m going to do you a favor and parse the hippy dippy horse shit from back to front.

Fuck you and your shitty toxic heartless philosophy.

This last bit is the dead give away that you are a bleeding heart leftist idiot. I’m not saying that just to insult you, but in the hopes that you remove your head from your little leftist ass.

Advocating for a free citizenry that takes responsibility for their own actions is not a “toxic heartless philosophy”. It’s the consequence of the philosophy that places liberty above one’s own selfish and self-centered want to tell everyone else in their society how the fuck they should carry themselves.

“I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it.” – Thomas Jefferson

Regardless of your awareness, your so-called philosophy seeks to infantalize grown adults by mandating they jump through hoops under penalty of law in order to own something they by natural law have a right to own. That is a tyranny.


Any time you are using dangerous tools, machinary, or doing dangerous procedures, you are required to get training in order to prevent harm to yourself and others; guns are no different.

That’s bullshit as anyone who’s worked outside keeping their mothers basement clean would know. When I was 16 I was put on a full sized tractor, no seat belt, no cab, so safety disconnect if I fell off. I was shown the basic controls and tasked by my grandfather to bush-hog a 20 acre field. Yet magically I had the common god damn sense to know that if operated it like a dumb ass, one of the potential consequences was that could fall off be cut to pieces.

And yet here I am almost 20 years later and I’m just fine. I was NEVER required to pass any sort of fucking training course nor was I breaking any laws in doing so. The tractor was privately owned. The land was privately owned. I didn’t require the permission of big brother because that is the nature of liberty.

You are moronically confusing the requirements placed on companies and their employees with what people OWN and DO privately. And indeed guns are no different, if we were talking about a guns in the setting of a company and it’s employees. If I work as an armed guard then sure, there would be mandatory safety training. If I don’t like that then I don’t have to work for that company. That is the nature of liberty, the freedom to choose. What you describe IS NOT the same, as you or I are discussing the purchase of a firearm for PERSONAL use.


I should be able to get a construction job operating the heavy machinery, as long as I figure it out myself, right?

That all depends on the construction company and if they trust you with their equipment. Here again you are make a false comparison. We are discussing personal firearm ownership, not firearm ownership as it relates to employment.

However if you purchase the heavy machinery yourself and kill yourself on your own private property then it’s not the government’s fault you were an incompetent moron. And even if you completed some sort of safety training, the completion of said training is no guarantee that you will, over time, become relaxed, fail to obey it and kill or injure someone in the future.

I worked as a cop for 5 years and I know of cops who were literally 15+ year veterans, completed dozens of schools with their weapons, and still blew a fucking hole in the back of their patrol unit because they just assumed they knew what they were doing and stopped paying attention. You cannot fix human nature with legislation.


Even though they don’t have the training, it’s their right to look after themselves, right?

Yes, as it relates to an employee / employer relationship. You want to work, then you get the training. But again, this has fuck all to do with PERSONAL firearm ownership.


Hell if someone wants to preform surgery on a member of their family, they should be able to right?

If the family member on whom the procedure will be performed is a legal adult and agrees then yes. That is the nature of liberty. You nor I have any power to decide for them.

This is a great example of the fundamental difference between how one thinks with their head up their ass compared to someone who doesn’t. You pretend that you are so fucking special that you know what is best for everyone else. I realize, on the other hand, there are dumb people in this world and though I may do my best to fully inform them of their stupidity, I value my liberty to much to infringe on there’s to do something not in their best interest.


You might as well start taking away drivers license exams, or any sort of training for dangerous equipment if you hold that attitude.

Driver’s license exams are only required if you intend to operate a motor vehicle on a public roadway. I do not require a drivers license to purchase a motor vehicle. I do not require one to operate that motor vehicle on private property.

A case in point would be muscle cars designed and used purely for drag racing. A classic American Muscle car can go 0-60 in less than six seconds. These races take place at private tracks, on private property. No drivers license or proof of training is required to engage in this sort of obviously dangerous activity. The track owner may require restraints and a helmet but there is no law (at least in my state) that dictates it.


They are there to protect the gun owners and those around them, not to take away gun rights

I know you think that, but that’s only because you have your head shoved up your ass. Safety courses are NO guarantee that the participant will not act in an unsafe manner after completing the course.

And gun safety requirements have been used to take away gun rights. Once you remove your head from you ass go and read what the D.C. Police department did to defy a Federal court ruling overturning the D.C. gun ban. It’s a simply matter requiring special “government classes”, raising the fees associated with the training to a level most people cannot afford, and only giving the class a few times a year on dates most working people are unable to attend.

I’m not being paranoid, that happened and it happened despite all those like you crowing that mandatory training doesn’t exist to “take away gun rights”.


You are literally fucking retarded if you think mandatory gun safety courses are a bad thing.

Again, you have your head planted firmly up your own ass so I expect this would be your view on the matter.

To be clear, nothing the matter with safety courses, it’s the “mandatory” part where you fuck up.

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Soon!

Nov 10, 2016

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Reality check for the “omg it wasn’t an assault rifle, it only fires one bullet at a time.”

Maybe you should spend less time complaining about what word is used to describe the weapons that killed two Hiroshimas worth of your countrymen in the last decade.

How does a weapon kill someone? I thought there had to be someone pulling the trigger.  Also, if the weapon is so evil, why does every police force in the US use them?  Reality check, you are a moron.

There is so much to unpack here.

The fact that a weapon is usually wielded by a person does not absolve the weapon of it’s own qualities. Are you under the impression that there would be an equal number of murders (and accidental deaths) had technology stopped at clubs?

Do you think that biological and nuclear weapons are safe for sale in America because, hey, they’re just weapons that a person would have to activate to be dangerous?

Are the thousands of yearly accidental firearm deaths the result of an unhinged will and a totally safe piece of technology?

I get that you like guns, and like shooting them. But guns kill twice as many people as cocaine every year, and cocaine is illegal — because it is dangerous.


There is so much to unpack here.

Not really. It’s actually really simple.

The fact that a weapon is usually wielded by a person does not absolve the weapon of it’s own qualities. Are you under the impression that there would be an equal number of murders (and accidental deaths) had technology stopped at clubs?

A weapon is ALWAYS wielded by a person. And there is no need to absolve weapons of anything. Absolve means to declare (someone) free from blame, guilt, or responsibility. A weapon is not a (someone) it is (something). Blame, guilt, and responsibility are all notions which are applicable to people.

Do you think that biological and nuclear weapons are safe for sale in America because, hey, they’re just weapons that a person would have to activate to be dangerous?

Those are weapons of mass destruction. I don’t think governments should have biological and nuclear weapons.

Are the thousands of yearly accidental firearm deaths the result of an unhinged will and a totally safe piece of technology?

Factory produced firearms that have not been tampered with are a totally safe piece of technology. They are safe in the same sense that a motor vehicle is safe, which is to say it all depends on the operator.

Your claim that there are thousands of yearly accidental firearms deaths is a complete lie. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s (CDC) final report on death statistics for 2013 shows there were 505 deaths from the accidental discharge of firearms. In fact there has been a 57.2% decrease in the number of accidental firearm deaths since 1990.

I get that you like guns, and like shooting them. But guns kill twice as many people as cocaine every year, and cocaine is illegal — because it is dangerous.

I do like guns. I do enjoy practicing my marksmanship. Gun do not kill people, people use guns to kill people. Cocaine doesn’t kill people, people kill themselves by using cocaine. Cocaine is no more dangerous than any other drug. I’ve seen the shit close up. It has a funny odor sure but if I don’t snort the shit or inject it into my body it’s not going to harm me.

Cocaine is illegal because it has no legitimate medical purpose.

Ask yourself, what happened when governments made Cocaine illegal? Did it’s production decrease? NOPE. Did people stop using it? NOPE.

When it was made illegal it’s production and use simply moved to the black market. The same thing has happened and will happen if you attempt the same stupid tactic with personal firearms.

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The minimum wage was originally passed with the intention of providing a full-time worker the capacity to support himself and a family. The federal minimum wage in the United States was set at $0.25 per hour in 1938. It was not tied to inflation and has to be increased by law. The term “Act of Congress” is often used to describe a massive and nearly impossible action. In this case it is both a literal and figurative truth.

Most everyone I meet seems to think that the minimum wage was never intended to be other than a wage for teenagers.  They are wrong.  The minimum wage is just that, the minimum acceptable wage that a full-time worker can make and be able to subsist without assistance.

No business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country. —President Franklin Delano Roosevelt, 1933

The minimum wage was established to ensure that all workers in the US would be able to live independently on their wages. The existence of a minimum wage provides all other workers with useful bargaining leverage, increasing wages throughout. Historically this typically results in a redistribution of wealth from owners to workers (not a commensurate increase in prices as some here have claimed), which always results in an overall increase in economic growth as workers are also consumers.

In the US minimum wage has become stagnant, failing to reflect inflation. A large part of that is the misconceptions throughout this thread. Minimum wage is not “earned solely by teenagers and college students for beer money.” Nor can any reasonable person suppose that anyone doesn’t deserve to “live comfortably on 40 hours a week.”

These, fairly recent, attitudes have been encouraged by business owners who have little incentive to pay their workers a reasonable wage, so long as there is an army of unemployed and underemployed willing to do the same job. The minimum wage subverts that desire.
Simply put, an owner pays a little as he can for the labor. The rarer a laborer’s skills are (not how skilled or useful he is, the owner never pays anyone he doesn’t have to) the more he can charge because he is difficult to replace. Minimum wage establishes a floor, as do overtime requirements and other fair labor standards.

The minimum wage has nothing to do with whether or not someone “deserves” to be paid for their work. Your boss will never pay you more than he has to, that is the central premise of a free market. A minimum wage says that no matter how little he wants to pay you, he should still pay you enough to live on. It is also simple economic sense, it saves money that would go to public welfare to support people who are employed. It is a decision by society as a whole that no one who is willing and able to work should find themselves in poverty.

All that being said, the shareholder prefers that money goes to his bottom line, and not into wages. So he fights any increase tooth and nail. The misconceptions and the insane anger from some focused on those on the rung lower on the socio-economic ladder are one tool to avoid it. Another is spreading misinformation to lawmakers; claiming that increasing minimum wage dampens, rather than strengthens, the local economy. And the last is simple apathy, since the minimum wage is not tied to inflation it becomes increasingly trivial as time goes by. After a while it becomes, as it has now, a poverty wage.

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I recently had a discussion come up over the following video.  The individual made the argument that since private sales of firearms do not requiring a background check, private sales are a loophole.  I explain why that just isn’t the case.  What follows is the video and our exchange.

PGFL1988:

Quick google search gave me this:

‘Under federal law, private-party sellers are not required to perform background checks on buyers, record the sale, or ask for identification. This requirement is in contrast to sales by gun stores and other Federal Firearms License (FFL) holders who are required to record all sales and perform background checks on almost all buyers, regardless of whether the venue is their business location or a gun show.’

So Fullauto can sell me a gun without performing a background check, recording the sale or even asking me for identification. Now, if fullauto gets an FFL (allows you to manufacture, import and sell guns and ammo) then he will need to perform a background check on anyone he sells guns to.

So, if a gang in Chicago wants to buy guns to exploit this loophole, they get a guy in Indiana who can pass a background check to buy the guns, ‘sell’ them to the Chicago gangmembers and voila, that seller hasn’t committed any crimes despite the fact that he knowingly sold guns to people he knows wouldn’t be able to go through the legal avenues.

Please correct me if I’m wrong.

 

Here’s the deal PGFL1988.

It’s perfectly lawful to sell a firearm privately in the USA.  Now of course if you knowingly sell one to a felon then you’re committing a felony.

The gun grabbers want to criminalize private sales without government permission so they dishonestly label private sales as being a LOOPHOLE.

There is no GUN-SHOW LOOPHOLE for the simple fact that federal gun laws do not magically go away at a gun-show.  The dealers at gun shows are basically Federally Licensed Dealers who go on the road.

Now I don’t know if you’ve ever been to an American Gun Show but there’s a reason criminals do not aquire guns there.   First, THEY DO BACKGROUND CHECKS.  Second, gun shows are over priced.  You’re better off finding a good deal online.  HOLY SHIT YOU CAN GET A GUN ON THE INTERNET!?  Yes, HOWEVER the firearm MUST BE shipped to an FFL in your State.  This involves you calling the FFL first and asking if they are willing to handle the transfer and getting their license number to give to the online shop.  You then must pay for a background check and whatever fee the FFL wants to charge for handling the transfer.

The bottom line is that Obama is a fucking liar.

A quick google search?  A QUICK GOOGLE SEARCH?  Sure, if you google “gun show loophole” of course you’re going to get links to all the bullshit anti-gun sites repeating the same lie.  “I’m right because of a google search” does not a valid argument make.

 

PGFL1988:

”Under federal law, private-party sellers are not required to perform background checks on buyers, record the sale, or ask for identification. This requirement is in contrast to sales by gun stores and other Federal Firearms License (FFL) holders who are required to record all sales and perform background checks on almost all buyers, regardless of whether the venue is their business location or a gun show.”

Is this statement incorrect? Are private sellers not allowed to sell guns at a gunshow?

If yes, then there is a gunshow loophole. Just because the majority of people selling guns at gun shows are FFL holders doesn’t mean that all of them are.

This is from the CATO institute, which is clearly a right wing think tank and even they say that the gun-show loophole doesn’t exist:

 ‘Since 1938, persons selling firearms have been required to obtain a federal firearms license. If a dealer sells a gun from a storefront, from a room in his home or from a table at a gun show, the rules are exactly the same: he can get authorization from the FBI for the sale only after the FBI runs its “instant” background check (which often takes days to complete).

Conversely, people who are not engaged in the business of selling firearms, but who sell firearms from time to time (such as a man who sells a hunting rifle to his brother-in-law), are not required to obtain the federal license required of gun dealers or to call the FBI before completing the sale.

If you walk along the aisles at any gun show, you will find that the overwhelming majority of guns offered for sale are from federally licensed dealers. Guns sold by private individuals (such as gun collectors getting rid of a gun or two over the the weekend) are the distinct minority.’

http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/facts-about-gun-shows

it seems pretty clear to me that there is a loophole. Can you explain how you read this same information and come to the opposite conclusion?

If you want to say that closing the loophole will hurt individual sellers too much, or that it’s way too inconvenient then that’s a reasonable argument, but to simply say that the gun-show loophole doesn’t exist is bordering on delusional.

 

“Can you explain how you read this same information and come to the opposite conclusion?”

Yes your statement regarding current law is correct.

  • Licensed dealers who make their livelihood from selling firearms are required to perform background checks.
  • Private individuals (people NOT in the business of selling firearms) are not.  Some wanting to unload part of their private collection may engage in commerce with another private citizen.  If I wanted, I could take my rifle to a gun show and sell it to another attendee.

Now pay attention because although what I’m about to write is very simple to grasp, it non-the-less seems to fly over the heads of people like yourself who, in their lack of understanding, have swallowed the lies of the elitist gun-grabbers.

The fact that a PRIVATE INDIVIDUAL may sell their PRIVATE firearm without first obtaining government permission IS NOT, IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM, A LOOPHOLE.

A LOOPHOLE arises when ambiguity in the law is exploited to circumvent that law.

There is NO AMBIGUITY in the current federal gun law stating when background checks are and are not required.

This notion that violent felons are lining up at gun shows because it allows them to circumvent federal law is absolute bullshit.

It is ALREADY unlawful for a felon to possess a firearm.

It is ALREADY unlawful for someone to knowingly sell a firearm to a felon.

Criminalizing private sales WILL NOT stop felons from obtaining firearms.  Background checks WILL NOT stop felons from obtaining firearms.  You’re fond of Google searches, Google “straw purchase”, lying on a government form is not difficult.

If the chicken-little(s) screaming about the so-called “gun show loophole” are really concerned with gun shows, why are they pushing for a law that effects everyone?

Mind you, they don’t want to just require background checks for private sales at gun shows.  They are demanding Congress outright prohibit private sales PERIOD.

When you stop using the propaganda term “gun-show loophole” and call it by it’s actual name the fallacy reveals itself; it is the “freedom-to-engage-in-lawful-private-commerce loophole”.  Did you catch that?  They’re saying that a freedom enjoyed by law abiding people is a fucking loophole.

They don’t give a flying fuck about gun shows.  The gun show is just a boogie-man used to scare ignorant people into giving up their personal liberty.

“If you want to say that closing the loophole will hurt individual sellers too much”

^^ I’m not saying that.

“it’s way too inconvenient”

^^ I’m not saying that either.

“but to simply say that the gun show loophole doesn’t exist is bordering on delusional.”

It appears that way to you because you’ve been brainwashing into accepting a 1984-ish version of the term “loophole”.

What they ACTUALLY WANT is to criminalize people who engage in private lawful commerce absent paying fees and obtaining a one off government license for each transaction.

To what end?  We know it doesn’t stop criminals.

It’s simple, they want is to open up a backdoor to the creation of a national gun registry.

How do we know this?  Because Republicans actually submitted a background check bill in the Senate that would have opened NICS to private individuals FOR FREE.

Guess what, it was voted DOWN by Democrats who were pushing for their bill that would have forced all sales to go through a 3rd party FFL dealer.

The biggest reason why this issue is bullshit is that there is ZERO evidence that UBCs do anything to hinder the ILLEGAL trade of firearms among criminals.  And the reason is simple yet I constantly have to repeat it here, CRIMINALS BY DEFINITION DO NOT FOLLOW LAWS.

 

PGFL1988:

Can you sell guns at a gun show without doing a background check? If so, then how is that not a loophole?

 

It just keeps flying over your head doesn’t it.  I just answered you but I’ll do it again because I’m just that awesome.

If I want to sell my personal property at a gun show, there is NO LAW PROHIBITING me from doing that.

If I want to sell my personal property just outside the entrance of the gun show, there is NO LAW PROHIBITING me from doing that.

If I want to sell my personal property in the parking lot of a gun show, there is NO LAW PROHIBITING me from doing that.

If I want to sell my personal property on Thursday at 6:30pm while eating a taco, there is NO LAW PROHIBITING me from doing that.

Gun show or not, if I choose to sell my privately property to someone whom I have no reason to suspect is a prohibited person, there NO LAW PROHIBITING me from selling my personal property if I so choose.

Why is it not a loophole, because words have meaning and you are applying the term loophole to something that isn’t a fucking loophole, it’s merely something that is lawful and has always been lawful.

For example.  An FFL may not sell a handgun to someone under the age of 21.  But an 18 year old person is a legal adult and may lawfully purchase and own a firearm from a private individual.

Now by your reasoning that is a loophole.  Your reasoning is in error because you have a false definition of what constitutes a “loophole”.

Let’s pretend Congress had intended to enact Universal Background Checks when it passed the FOPA in 1986.  Furthermore, let’s pretend that somewhere in the law they fucked up the wording and by some unseen method of legal judo, under certain conditions a person could indeed technically sell their privately owned firearm without a background check.

That my friend is the definition of a loophole.

In reality Congress has NEVER INTENDED to enact Universal Background Checks.  The FOPA of 1986 unambiguously states that background checks are ONLY required when a firearm is sold by an Federal Firearms dealer.  Furthermore it unambiguously states that a Federal Firearms dealer is someone who makes their living from selling firearms.

QED: There is no loophole.  The term is being intentionally misapplied in order to suggest something semi-illegal is happening.  It’s nothing more than a dishonest buzzword used to scare people.


Here is an example of how one might misapply the term loophole as you are.

By law, an individual must have a Class A (Commercial Drivers License) in order to operate a for-hire tractor trailer on US roadways.

By law, an individual may operate a tractor trailer on US roadways WITHOUT a Class A license if they are only transporting items for themselves.

Is that a loophole?  Absolutely not.  The law is clear and unambiguous.

If certain powerful companies wanted to put a stop to farmers hauling their own goods to market, they could do what you and the gun grabbers are doing.  They could act as if it should be unlawful and assert, dishonestly, that the farmers are somehow exploiting a loophole.


Suppose I purchase three pair of high quality sun glasses at a great deal.  The law requires the business to collect sales tax on my purchase.

A few months later I turn around and sell those glasses individually for a profit.

Am I exploiting a loophole and avoiding the collection of sales tax?

According to you that could be construed as a loophole.

But the law is clear and unambiguous.  Only people in the business of selling sun glasses must collect sales tax.

Let’s take it one step further.  You manage to convince enough politicians to enact UNIVERSAL SALES TAX and everyone must collect sales tax any time they sell something they own.  Do you really expect the criminals selling knock-offs on the street to follow your new little law?

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